ProudParenting.com - Boy Scouts - Comments

its just wrong

Fri, 22 Feb 2008 12:43:24 -0800

what if this were about blacks? There would be outrage and there should be about this!

Gay Dad of an Enthusiastic Scout

GeneTroy — Thu, 24 Jan 2008 00:57:07 -0800

I was a scout. Back then I never questioned my sexuality; I simply did what was expected, including marrying and starting a family of my own. I enjoyed my time in scouting and would encourage every boy to consider it.

While I wish things had been more obvious to me before I married, I could never wish away my son. He is currently in Cub Scouts and plans to continue on into Boy Scouts.

I, myself, have elected to not pursue a leadership position in his troop. While I am out to my son's mom, the other parents in the troop do not know that I am gay; I don't want my son to deal with that stigma so young.

Right now his mom is more active in his scouting than I am. This is pretty typical for Cub Scouts, I believe. As he transitions into Boy Scouts, however, I plan to be more active in his scouting. I do not know that I will "out" myself to the others, but I hope to accompany him on all of the father/son activities that will arise.

Am I being dishonest in the scouting community? No.

Am I being less than open in the scouting community? Absolutely!

I think that scouting can be a positive experience for anybody's son ... it's up to me, though, to show him that the ways and philosophies of The Scouts are not "The Way." He's already fiercely independent in his passions and philosophies, so I forsee absolutely no chance of having to "de-program" him from their exclusivist philosophies. Besides ... if all of the gay dad's involved in scouting were to suddenly withdraw their support the organization would suffer greatly, if not fall completely.

If your son(s) show interest in scouting, support that interest. Be as "out" as you need to be, and make sure that your sons know that an organizations failure to keep up with social evolution does not exclude them, necessarily, from participation.

Don't let your boys grow up in the BSA

Mon, 31 Dec 2007 12:13:36 -0800

I was an Eagle Scout, and an Asst Scoutmaster, and so was my brother. I'm gay, he's not. I asked my mother if she would have enrolled us in the BSA today, knowing what she now knows. She said yes, and I was aghast. She always was a Pollyanna though, and heaven forbid rocking the boat.

The National BSA adults continue to hold the boys hostage because the individual councils are in too much disagreement to unify against them, and no one within the organization wants to tackle this issue because they know they're wrong, and there is huge secondary gain with all the taxpayers' support AND the religious support. The BSA loves having their cake and eating it too.

Meanwhile, its obvious to me that the majority of parents wish to think of their pubescent children as asexual, and continue pretending that these kids don't have really important issues in that area, all the while enrolling them in a paramilitary organization. Whether or not the leaders are talking about it, I can assure you that your kids are talking about it.

As for the traditional values crap, because we moved a lot, I was in many troops with many leaders, from Cub Scout to Asst Scoutmaster, all in the good ol' boy Bible Belt South. The traditional values that I saw from beginning to end was misogyny, drinking, smoking, cursing, and calling the queer kids (like me) out. And my last troop was "sponsored" by the First Baptist Church.

Our last Scoutmaster later volunteered for the Girl Scouts, where he was kicked out for molesting little girls. Yes, that's right, not the homosexual predator that all the Victorians here are so petrified by.

When it comes down to it though, I find it curious that the BSA acts as if it holds such a monopoly on helping boys mature that its adults can so flippantly violate its own laws - trustworthy, loyal, helpful, friendly, courteous, kind, obedient, cheerful, thrifty, brave, clean and reverent, but only occasionally and to some.... Maybe they should add misogynist, hypocritical, sanctimonious, prejudiced, and heterosexist?

Well Hi to all.

Sat, 22 Dec 2007 08:30:06 -0800

Hello

Just stopping in to say hi to y'all as a new member.

Aaron

BSA

Thu, 13 Dec 2007 10:12:32 -0800

Telling a Gay man to enroll his son in the Boy Scouts is like telling a Jewish parent to enroll his son in the Nazi Youth group. They want you till they found out who you really are.

Exactly

bjp249 — Wed, 05 Dec 2007 11:49:50 -0800

Your last comment about the disagreement is exactly what I'm probing. I know there are gay men and women in scouting, but since they can't be out about it and have to hide it so as not to be fired...is that right? And if these good, hard-working leaders can't be honest, how does that affect scouting? It's perplexing....

Exactly

bjp249 — Wed, 05 Dec 2007 11:49:44 -0800

BSA bad policy

Mon, 26 Nov 2007 13:58:16 -0800

I'm not gay, but our family has many friends who are. Whether to let my boys go to cub scouts was a difficult decision for our family. We discussed it at length, and decided to give it a try.

First, by being involved, I felt we had a voice. After a couple of months of being involved with my boys, it seems that we do. This voice is small, and only at the local level, but if others involved in scouting speak up then things can change.

Second, I decided to judge others based on their actions, and not their words. It seems that at least in this area/council, there is no anti-gay sentiment. It is more like a pained and grudging nod to the national organization. From what I can see, not one person, at one single event I have attended has bashed or bad-talked gays. So, it seems it has devolved into a kind of don't ask/don't tell scenario. As for the leadership issue, it is plain to me after attending a local University of Scouting event, that there are many gays and lesbians involved, but they just do not out themselves. It should not have to be like that.

I have asked alot of questions regarding the issue, and some people have taken those queries to suggest that I was gay and just did not talk about it. I didn't correct them, but was clear that I found an anti-gay policy to be reprehensible.

The question is, if there is a generally acknowledged disagreement with the national policy, how does a small local troop/pack or even a district or council get the national organization to re-visit their opinions and come up with a more sensible policy?

In the mean time, my children attend, they learn and are challenged and benefit from the many positive aspects of scouting. As they start getting more leadership experience, I plan on continuing to help them understand that intolerance against those that are different from them is unacceptable.

Former Cub Scout / Boy Scout who's gay & Disgusted with Scouting

Fri, 23 Nov 2007 10:43:04 -0800

The important issues about being open about Gay Men and Homophobia should be discussed at all the level of Boy Scouts and Cub Scouts. What better place than this, especially when I seem to remember that all we ever discussed as a group of boys was sex anyways, it's when we learn so much about sex, and the way we should feel about ourselves, why shouldn't the boys who are begining to feel an attraction towards their same sex, realize they are not sick, preverted or freaks and their feelings are just as valid as the other guys.

As a older man (just turned 59) who happens to also be gay, I fondly remember my days in both Cub Scouts and Boy Scouts. But I also remember all the "gay" "homo" "queer" and "fag" jokes which were told by both the fellow scouts and leaders. I remember being referred to as a "fag," "queer," "homo," and other things I will not even mention on this board, not only from some olders scouts, but by various counselors and leaders at Weekend Camping Trips, Summer Camp, and Jamborees because I wasn't as atheletic as some of the other boys. I went to Catholic School and didn't have a gym program to participate in and learn the game skills many of the other boys had.

Yet, I could use an axe, build bridges, camp fires, and sharpen blades better than other boys, tie knots, pitch a tent, and do all the things Scouts were expected to do better than most. Because I couldn't hit a baseball as far or often, couln't pitch at all, and was a terrible catcher, I only found out later I had a depth preception problem, I was labeled a "fairy" by one leader because all he care about was baseball. I had 18 merits badges working on my Eagle Scout Badge when I said ENOUGH of this CRAP and QUITE in disgust.

Back in my day, the 50's no one ever thought about the name calling and put down joking, as being anything wrong, after all FAGS were terrible disgusting things to be avoided at all costs.

No one expect me, I really didn't think there were any other people like me, when I got old enough to realize they were actually talking about me. I started to know, I was one of those "fags", "homos" or "Pussy boys" they were referring to. I began to realize my sexual urges were towards other boys, and not girls. The attraction I felt for one of my counselors and the reason he went out of his was to protect me. He had similar urges and feelings, he was the first person I ever met who was the same as me. No he never "molested" me, but if he had tried I would have "loved it", we were both to afraid to make the first move I think, it was the early 60's and we were both terrified of being found out. By the way he was only 16 or 17 to my 14 at the time.

He sat me down and explained some things to me, he made me feel good, he helped me alot. But shortly after that summer experience I quit scouting because I got sick and tired of the jokes, and name calling.

How many other boys today are in the same type of situation today as I was in the 50's and early 60's. During the period when Afro-Americans couldn't be in a white troop in my area.

The Cub and Boy Scouts are a place to talk about it and discuss gayness openly and non-prejudical. The same arguements being used about gays and gay scout leaders are the exact same crap I heard back in the late 50's and 60's, the only difference is gay is substitued for back and fag for the infamous "n" word.

Parents hide their own homophobia behind thinly veiled liberal statements of The Scout's don't discriminate against gay members, we just don' allow "gay leaders," well what the hell do you call it then? And god forbid, what happens if your boy is beginning to realize that he might be or is gay? What type of message are you sending him? You are telling him he is sick, he should be ashamed, he is condemned by God, he is disgusting. Will this child ever be able to talk to you about his feelings.

Believe me, there is no way a child will open up to a parent sending these messages. This is the type of child who will probably consider suicide, he may not commit it, but he will consider it. Teenage gay childern, had a 3 to 4 times higher suicide rate than other childern, primarily becuase of the negative pressures from home. The one place they should feel safe.

It's good old fashioned bigotry. Or the statement, I'm not homophobic, I have a lot of gay friends. Are you sure, you might think they are your friends, but they probably don't count you as one, how can they when you discrimate against them.

Think of what you are teaching your children. They will become the same somewhat narrow minded, carefully prejudical person as you are yourself.

Gaymen are not out to attack your children, remember they are at greater danger from their STRAIGHT SCOUT MASTERS, 93% of boys and young teens unber the age of 18 are STRAIGHT Hetersexual men with families.

Remember your child has a much greater chance of being hit by a car, on his way home from school than being molested by any gay man.

THINK ABOUT IT.

Peter Applebome's book Scout's Honor

Mon, 19 Nov 2007 13:12:00 -0800

Look at Peter Applebome's book: Scout's Honor (Chapter 12, in particular). Applebome has been a reporter and editor for The New York Times since 1987. He has excellent insights on workings at the troop level. www.peterapplebome.com/

Scoutmaster in SF Bay Area

Interesting!

bjp249 — Mon, 12 Nov 2007 20:34:59 -0800

If the National policy is one thing, but the local policies can differ, then why would it be such an issue??? Would you be willing to discuss this with me further, it's intriguing! Thanks!

Family life and don't ask/don't tell

Mon, 12 Nov 2007 11:27:47 -0800

I see no reason why a boy can not discuss a family with 2 moms or 2 dads with his family life counselor, especially if he is in such a family.

The 1st two requires are as follows:
1. Prepare an outline on what a family is and discuss this with your merit badge counselor. Tell why families are important to individuals and to society. Discuss how the actions of one member can affect other members.
2. List several reasons why you are important to your family and discuss this with your parents or guardians and with your merit badge counselor.

No matter what kind of family you have, to a kid, a family is about love and support, making your bed, doing your homework and taking out the trash, after being asked the second time. Having Moms or Dads or a Mom and a Dad, or grandparents is secondary.

In regards to don’t ask/don’t tell, despite the fact that Boy Scout of America may look like one big organization, marching in step with each other, it is not. Scouting is about small groups of kids, parents and leaders.

Some Troops are run by churches ( LDS, Roman Catholic, Methodist, etc) and they have their own doctrine that they follow. A scout from the gay family may not feel welcome there; in the troop or the church. It all depending on the church.

Some troops are run by service clubs (Elks, Lions Club, VFW, PTA etc). In these Troops, it all depends on the group. Some clubs are more welcoming than others.

Then, there are groups of parents and other adult who get together and start a Pack (Cub Scout) or a Troop. These Troops (the type which I belong) are what you make of them.
We have a policy of non-discrimination, including sexual orientation.

To anticipate your next question; then why join BSA, if this is going to be an issue? Why not start another type of group? Two reasons; First, after about 100 years of existence, the BSA system, for what it does for boys, is unbeatable. There is no other organization that teaches boys hands on leadership skills, like the Boy Scouts; bar none. Also, the support that we get from other adult leaders in the area and the local council, makes my job possible. Second, to be honest, there is no way any one troop or groups of parents could afford the liability insurance!

Please keep in mind that these issues hardly comes up on the Troop level, unless someone is trying to make a point. We are too busy trying to help kids make the right choices in life. Is it perfect? No, however, as we know, the perfect is the enemy of the good.

Scoutmaster in SF Bay Area.

I have recently been told by

Sat, 10 Nov 2007 12:49:15 -0800

I have recently been told by the BSA that my 6-year-old son cannot join his local scouting troop because we are atheists.
Invoking the Declaration of Independence:

"When in the Course of human events it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation."

. . . I suggested to a local representative of the BSA that I would permit my son to swear an oath to nature. For this anti-American and discrimanatory organization, such a gesture fell short of the mark. So in effect, through my tax dollars, I am subsudizing the activites of an organization (they both recruit and hold meetings in my son's school!) that is free to discriminate against my son on religious grounds. No red-blooded American would ever stand for this. I am actively seeking legal council now.

In response...

bjp249 — Fri, 09 Nov 2007 12:55:09 -0800

I think your argument was backwards, but I'm pretty sure I get it. Why can't the Scouts support homosexuality and publicize it if they receive public subsidies, right? That's the question?

If it is, then my answer is "I wish I knew." But that's why Philadelphia recently told the Scouts to either pay up on their rent or move out of the building that they've been getting for free for the past century or so. The city doesn't want to fund a group that goes against the city's anti-discriminatory policy.

Is that what you were getting at?

Agree, but questions...

bjp249 — Fri, 09 Nov 2007 09:25:30 -0800

I agree that BSA is not a venue for discussing sexuality. I don't think that's the goal. And I think if a gay parent wanted to be a leader, it should not be used as a soapbox for gay activism -- any job with children should not be used as such.

But what about when it comes time to do the FAMILY LIFE merit badge, for example...does the issue come up there? How can you discuss families in today's world without discussing the variety of families (races, religions, genders, etc.) that go along with that?

And I think the don't ask don't tell policy is fine in theory. But would it fly everywhere? If you're in New York or California, maybe the BSA chapters really don't care. But if you can risk being kicked out of a leadership position in your son's group because you mention something about your partner, what does that signal?